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mulander @mulander

I for sure will never touch Pale Moon. This is absurd.

github.com/jasperla/openbsd-wi

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@mulander oh for fuck's sake, I was going to try out Pale Moon today on my Alpine because hey it's an old Firefox it should be lightweight enough for my system

@mulander What the hell even is it

I've never heard of it before and the hits I'm seeing for it sound like something I'd expect to be loaded with adware

@zigg @mulander it had a use *briefly* when mozilla put DRM into their browser - it was probably the most mainstream mozilla fork to take an anti-DRM stance. But this isn't the only thing they've done Wrong. They also removed the ability to install AdNauseam add frustration tool. That's when I forked github.com/themusicgod1/Paler-

@mulander That "you will" phrasing was unforgivably presumptuous.

If somebody addressed me in that fashion, and they weren't paying me, I would tell them to fuck off. Hell, I'd probably tell them to fuck off regardless.

@starbreaker read my last comment, they fucking attacked him on a work in progress repo - he approached them 2 days earlier on their forum to coordinate branding & upstreaming patches. This is infuriating and insulting.

@mulander No shit. It's almost as if the Pale Moon clowns think OpenBSD is some fly-by-night operation.

@mulander Moonchild seems to have very ... peculiar opinions in general. They're also under the impression that the purpose of TLS certificates is to mark websites as non-fraudulent: forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.p

Yep, that's definitely the kind of understanding of the Web PKI I'd wish for from a browser vendor.

@mulander a fun game is to look through mozilla's security advisories from about a year or two ago, find a good one (sev:critical, rce), search mozilla's tree for the bug number to find the patch, and then check if pale moon has the same code and if they patched it 😬

that's why I won't touch it

@cb @mulander Ever done that with their bundled, modified libs? I'm horrified that they have their own libjpeg and libpng that can lag many years behind upstream.

(see github.com/MoonchildProduction)

@cb Never realized that Pale Moon does not have the same code like Firefox? The patches what Mozilla inserts are useless if the code does not exist in Pale Moon. And pretty much code of Mozilla of lately is not around.

How should the security issue arrive then? Present from Avatar or Santa Claus?

@DCM @cb they might not share newly added issues (assuming they don't take any patches from upstream Firefox) but they do share a common ancestor so a large portion of the code.

Very often, newly found vulnerabilities are actually very old.

Take for example this: securityfocus.com/bid/96691

Security issue from March 2017 - it was present in the browser since Mozilla Firefox 0.1...

@DCM Did you miss where I said "check if pale moon has the same code"? And anyway, the vast majority of pale moon is still old firefox code

@mulander Wow.

"I never said lawyers!"

"What did you mean?"

"A Cease and Desist."

WTF?

@mulander wooooww, that's some grade-A assholery.

Like, I get it, they think someone is violating their terms. why be so confrontational about it? that's pretty much a case study in how _not_ to approach this kind of issue

@mulander What a total waste of resources.

@mulander why so uppity about the brand? they didn't build that browser

@mulander they don't really have anything riding on that branding that i'm aware of, and this is, like, an under-the-hood change so the browser works better. i don't get it

@KitRedgrave I'm afraid I'm not the person to answer that. Usually I would suggest asking the authors but you might want to consult your lawyer before getting in touch with them.

@mulander i am not gonna poke this with a stick. i have no stake in any of this

@mulander
Instead of discussing things - it is ok to be agressive right from the start. There is no sane middle ground anymore....

@mulander Wow. That's a textbook example of "how to be a dick." I feel I should take notes.

@mwlucas @mulander And apparently no-one involved has ever heard of the Streisand Effect...

@mulander Doesn't Mozilla do the same thing with Firefox?

@rook @mulander
I believe so, however the issue (in this thread) isn't about the branding. It's about Palemoon's response to a work-in-progress repo to port it to OpenBSD, which was not being distributed at the time of the github issue. @bcallah had reached out to them about the branding through their forums, and this issue on github is their response.

At least, that's how I understand it.

@architect @mulander @bcallah yeesh, if so that's pretty bad. Though I don't really see any bad intentions here, just an utter lack of tact. Idk.

@rook @architect @mulander I also don't think there were bad intentions either. But a "Hey, do you mind disabling x, y, and z while we figure out all the logistics?" from them would have been met with a "Sure, no problem." from me. I have better things to do with my time than deal with attacks in response to my trying to work with them.

@bcallah @architect @mulander I hear that, just the way I'm hearing it it sounds like a response was solicited?

If so, it kinda comes off as a list of requested instructions. Again, totally tactless.

Don't get me wrong, my response to that kind of comment would be very stern regardless of their intent.

@rook @architect @mulander Yes, I was looking for a response. But the response was a bit unexpected to say the least.

@mulander @architect @rook And since according to upstream, this browser is his full time job (IIRC) and I was coming as a potential volunteer who would provide more users (and thus more income for him... none of which I would see), I guess the last thing I was expecting was the response I got.

@mulander 11th commandment:
Thou shalt not use Pale Moon's branding.

@pfm @mulander at least not without the 'special sauce' contained in the bundled libs, if you follow their line of argumentation

@mulander the fact that besides open source software licenses people will still have to deal with special redistribution licenses is completely insane. That shouldn't even exist at all. Well wtv, good to know to stay away.

@mulander I love pale moon but this is not good at all.

@mulander Now I can probably get why palemoon basically doesn’t exist on gentoo.
They even have gentoo vocabulary (“portage trees, overlays, ebuilds”) in their license stuff…

@mulander Well they can stick a brolly up their arse and open it.

@mulander ...and the absurdity comes from tobin

why am i not surprised?

@mulander The FreeBSD port/package is also building with system libraries. I will ask him if he wants me to delete our package too. 🤔

@feld in that case you are in violation ;)

Especially since the port is named palemoon and has --enable-official-branding in the Makefile ;)

@feld @mulander

>> "You will" indeed...

> Technically, he wasn't wrong. Those lines were in fact removed as part of deleting the port :)

:-D

https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-ports/2018-February/112462.html
@ckeen @feld @mulander Moonchild is Swedish? I wasn't aware. I can confirm that there is one person in the Swedish person registry named Moonchild.

Yeah, if they haven't even registered trademarks before ordering people around, it goes from rude-embarrassing clown-embarrassing.

@mulander the Pale Moon Cartel will break your kneecaps if you 'misuse' their O F F I C I A L B R A N D I N G

@Cybertrash @mulander excuse me, that's OFFICIALBRANDING (if you're going to fullwidth, fullwidth right)

@calvin @Cybertrash hey, you can't use the system font for that.

@Cybertrash @mulander They are not wrong though... he just pointed out, correctly, that it is a violation. Perhaps a bit precipitously but why should he wait? He didn't use any foul language. He was direct.

I think Ibra was the one who had a bad day... Respecting licenses is important. Everyone in FOSS knows this. It is bad when a non-foss project misuse this.. but a foss-project like openBSD should know better. Instead of just acknowledging the issue he demanded to talk to the IP owner...

@shellkr @Cybertrash please read my comment on the github issue.

Ibra approached them 2 days before this whole thing on github popped up. Asking on how to cooperate & coordinate. Not a single copy of pale moon was distributed, that repo is a draft in progress of a port. They jumped the gun.

@mulander @Cybertrash I did.. but consider it a bit beside the point. Unless mattatobin participated or knew about that forum conversation. Do you know if he did?

I think Ibara sidestepped a bit there.. He could have mentioned the post on their forum e.t.c.. instead of just demanding to talk to the IP-holder.

It is sad to see it went the way it did.

@shellkr @mulander @Cybertrash Yes he did. He followed the link in my post on their forums to get to the github.

@shellkr @mulander @Cybertrash I actually didn't see the thread on the forum until later. I hadn't been reading every thread/post for the past week or so because I had been very busy.

@mulander pale moon is garbage and has been garbage the entire time.

@mulander They totally suck at communication, but other than that this seems not much different from the old Firefox <> Iceweasel situation in Debian?

@galaxis we are not bitter on their licensing claims and branding. They have the right to do that, they behaved like assholes to someone who actually reached out and tried to cooperate with them. Please see my comment in the linked issue for more details.

@galaxis as in, seriously they did a cease & desist against a work in progress repository to someone who approached them on how to do it properly - it's not like we distributed a branded Pale Moon browser...

@mulander @galaxis Wait, when they say "[I only heard about this because somebody said they were running PM on OpenBSD]", they are even referring to a person that talked to them to figure this out?

@clacke @mulander @galaxis The only person known to ever get PM running on OpenBSD is me. So yes. They'd be referring to the person that talked to them to figure it out, since that person is me.

@mulander @galaxis wow. That thread sure is something else.

Like others said, I have never used Pale Moon, but now I really never want to.

Like you said, they may be in the right from a legal point of view, but there is no need to be absolute arseholes about it.

@mulander Yeah, I read that. But since I had been using Pale Moon for some time (and following their forum) before mostly switching to Vivaldi more recently, I'm just not particularly surprised.

@mulander In my time working with different projects, I've learned to focus on coming to a solution that benefits everyone. Compromises have to be met. I've learned to focus on advancing technology, rather than proving I'm right. It seems other people might need to learn to do the same.

@lattera eh yeah, they were approached by Brian 2 days before that issue popped up on their own forums (links & details in the github ticket). It just pisses me off, I saw him sharing screenshots here and on birdsite for having it running then he got a middle finger as a thank you.

@mulander what the... various ways to handle that situation and definitely not in the first instance / response.

and i saw thread forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.p so someone who does branding would have been 'thanks for reaching out, please use x, y, z instead'.

@mulander @bcallah The good news is that nobody really needs some random fork of an ancient version of firefox 🙃 Now, if these trademark clowns were having their trademarked browser run perfectly™ on a trademarked G4 macppc, they would have something we'd actually need.... do they?

@stsp @mulander You're looking for TenFourFox (if only I could convince Cameron to make it not Mac OS X only!)

@mulander Guess what browser I JUST installed on my new Windows 10 install? Welp, now I know what to prune...

@mulander I was hoping to do some gentle drive-by trolling of the Pale Moon guys, but the repo owner had the good sense to lock the thread.

@mulander pale moon is a really strange thing to be honest, besides the licencing stuff, which to me seems just about enough to not use it, they also ban some add-ons from Mozilla store for being e.g. "amoral" as they say it, and, although one can enable those add-ons somewhere in configuration pages, this "moderation" policy seems really strange to me

@mulander Oh hey look, now the Pale Moon people are accusing me of being people I'm not (for the record, my user name there is ibara). I hadn't heard of Pale Moon back in 2016 when this user account was being created.
But, you know, if I have to be their bogeyman, that's not the worst thing in the world.
But wow, talk about beating a dead horse. Otoh, they don't seem coordinated enough to launch any real harassment campaign, so that's good.
forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.p

@bcallah @mulander
Well, if the github issue wasn't enough to keep me away from the project, their community reaction to someone being frustrated enough to tell them they no longer want to use their browser sure is.

@mulander Ah, well it looks like that guy's name might just coincidentally be the same as mine.

@bcallah @mulander Wondering if this whole thing is an attempt to get more folks to notice that this project exists.

(Something something no bad publicity).

@craigmaloney @mulander I'm glad it (appears to at least) seems that I'm wrong and that the person who was frustrated and quit in that forum post just also happens to be named Brian. Because otherwise, it places me in some perverse power over their project that I really don't want. I want them to just move on.

@craigmaloney @bcallah @mulander Could be.

But there is such a thing as bad publicity.

"This is a bad movie" is not bad publicity. It lets people know the film exists, and someone will hear the description and think it's great.

"This person is an ass, and here's the public record on being an ass" is bad publicity.

@bcallah @mulander that forum content is typical linux-like community forum as of switching to systemd. ugly, rude, stupid.😀

@bcallah @mulander Looks like Pale Moon have locked out anonymous users from viewing the forum now.

@pertho @mulander /me *shrugs*
At this point, if there isn't anything new from them, we should leave it alone. They can't control the narrative on their own forums.
And there's a power imbalance anyway. We're bigger than them, we've been around much longer than them, and we'll be around long after they're gone. Ignoring them is the right thing to do now.
Not in OpenBSD ports, not in pkgsrc, not in Alpine Linux, maybe booted from FreeBSD ports. Seems like the right resolution to me.

@mulander @pertho They clearly don't understand that the problem is behavior and community building. Those things are less important to them than their branding. They're being punished for that stance. And that's OK.
I'd like to see Pale Moon in OpenBSD ports someday. Perhaps they'll learn from their mistakes. Maybe they won't. But it's not up to me to decide.
What's clear right now is they're not capable of being a good upstream. I have hundreds of awesome upstreams I work with. So it's them.

@mulander You know, You guys now flaming and shitstorming now about Pale Moon... Pretty much not adult.

Pretty crazy how much snowflakes are inside Linux communities!

@mulander I for myself will keep on using Pale Moon as Mozilla is a radical leftist extremist browser developer.

And something like that i am not going to support. Also not supporting their Chrome addiction (removing customization to be Chrome user's hero)

THAT is disgusting and a REAL issue.

@DCM you are free to use whatever you please. What has been criticized from the beginning is how pale moon approached a person actually doing work for them.

I am not judging the browser, nor it's users - I however don't see myself working with an upstream like that, and frankly their technical choices (bundling libs) also collides with what I consider a practice that I would support..

@DCM @mulander leftist extremist browser developer?

How much did you pay for your copy of Pale Moon? 🤔
@mulander palemoon confirmed for world's first autism powered browser.